Episode 30 - Steve Saxton Founder & Owner of Bravuro Cellars

In this bold episode of The Realtor Who Wines Podcast, Realtor Rashelle Newmyer visits with Steve Saxton, co-owner of Bravuro Cellars, for a heartfelt conversation about passion, perseverance, and purpose in business.  

Steve pulls back the curtain on what really goes into building a lasting wine brand, from 18 months of barrel aging to temperature-controlled warehouses and the behind-the-scenes logistics that keep every bottle tasting just right. But what truly sets Bravuro apart isn’t just the wine, it’s the people.  With genuine pride, Steve shares how Bravuro Cellars has never lost a single employee in nearly a decade of business, a rare feat in hospitality, and how keeping tasting fees low ($10!) is a deliberate act of inclusivity to make wine approachable for everyone. 

From California to Oregon, Steve and his wife Luci followed their passion for wine on a decade-long journey of learning, experimenting, and building a business rooted in creativity and courage. What started as volunteering at a Lodi winery became a thriving Oregon winery, complete with estate-grown Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, a tasting room in Newberg, and a loyal wine club that feels like family. 

Together, Rashelle and Steve reflect on how trends like the rise of mocktails and shifting wine habits are changing the industry. They also discuss why, even through challenges, Bravuro continues to pour with purpose, supporting local families, farmers, and the community with every glass.  

 So pour yourself something bold, sit back, and soak in this perfect blend of wisdom, warmth, and wine country charm. 

Thank you for listening! Connect and collaborate with Realtor Rashelle on any of her social media platform pages > https://linktr.ee/RealtorRashelle

Transcript

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Welcome to the Realtor Who Wines podcast. I'm Rachelle Newmeyer, your hostess with the mostest a student of life, a connector, a passionate wine enthusiast, and your local favorite guide. Join me as we explore the vibrant Pacific Northwest. Savor the finest wines and champion the spirit of entrepreneurship. Each episode, I'll sit down with inspiring guests, supporting business ownership and uncovering the stories that make this community unique. So grab a glass of wine, settle in, and let's embark on a journey of discovery and connection together. Cheers. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the realtor who owns podcast. I'm Rachelle Neumeyer, your local realtor who loves to whine. Today we are on a beautiful location and I can't wait for you to hear more about it. Steve, thank you so much for having me here. Cheers to you. Thank you for coming. Yeah. Thank you for having me. Jackie just taught me how to properly. Cheers. Can we teach everybody at home? So if you're watching, obviously you'll be able to see if you're listening. Go check out the YouTube video so that you can watch it. But she was saying the bottom of the glass. Yeah. Barrel is the strongest part of the glass. Yeah, the lip is the weakest part. So your chances of chipping a glass is greater up there. Yeah. And you said it sounds better. It sounds better. Yeah. It makes a nicer toast. Thank you so much for having me. Will you please introduce yourself to anyone that's listening? Sure. I'm Steve Saxton and, my wife Lucy, and I own river cellars here in Amity. We also have a tasting room in in downtown Newburgh. But we've been there for nine years here for five and a half on the vineyard property. And, and we, are big fans of big, bold red wine there. Yeah. Same. Yeah, absolutely. Talk to me a little bit about this adventure for you. And, like, what started you on this path of having your own vineyard and creating your own wine? I was in my 50s, living in California and and knew that the career I'd had for 33 years in the health and fitness industry would come to a close someday. I just came out of it and wanted something I could do till I died because I'll never retire. Yeah, I'm that way, knowing that I'm going to work. What is it that I could do? And at the same time, I was writing and I was writing screenplays and I created a cartoon line, but I couldn't monetize it. No. No one was paying me to write screenplays, to write a book. And, at the same time, my wife and I had a big interest in red wine. We were living in Lodi, California. They have great wines down there. We loved wine, and we were volunteering for a winery down there. And so in our spare time, I was either I was either writing or we were at the winery. And I realized, you know there might be an opportunity here in the wine industry for us. Yeah. And so we spent ten years working for free volunteering time for a winery in Lodi. But loving it all the time. Yeah. And like learning along the way to everything from, from from the field to the to the bottle and everywhere in between. It was. We just did it because we loved it. And anytime I'm that passionate about something, I love to find a way to make that work for sure. For work. Work. Yeah. Absolutely. So it was a ten year process. It wasn't just like, hey, let's just go. Yeah, sure. Sounds fun. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a hallmark movie. Like, let's just buy a winery and everything. So people do that, and it doesn't usually work out. Yeah. But we were very passionate about about the wine industry and with my career in business. I knew a bunch of winemakers in Lodi who owned their wineries and, and they didn't really understand the business side. Sure. Yeah. They were great, artisans but not business people. I came at it from a different angle as a businessman. Right. And said, I can always hire winemakers, hire technicians. Why not? But I didn't know anyone who no one had done that. So I didn't have like a model to follow that. Sure. So I kind of created my own. Yeah. And what took you from Lodi to Oregon? How come you didn't open up a shop in, like, Lodi? We considered it. It was there. We would have been like just about every other winery. Where. Where the line up is pretty much the same. But I was born and raised in Oregon, graduated from Oregon State, wanted to come home. Yeah. And Lucy and I had come up here every year to see family and friends, and we'd always toyed with the idea of maybe living the autumn of our lives in Oregon. And so we looked at the business model and said, what's the same business model in Lodi or Oregon? But there we'd be like everyone else and up here we'd be pretty unique. And so I met with the OC and said here's what I would like to do. We'd like to bring up all this California wine. And the guy said, well yeah you can do that legally, right. I'm not sure that's the smartest business model, you know. And I don't think they're going to embrace you as a Californian coming up. You're doing that right. And that helped lead us to the name of our winery. Because bravado means doing something risky or daring. I love it well. Yeah. So we thought, well, if we pull this off, we're Bavaro. Yeah, absolutely. Nine and a half years later, we're still here, going strong. And we are. Bravo. Yeah. And you do have an estate grape. And you do grow here. Well, actually, you have a couple of varieties. Or you have the Chardonnay and the Pino. Do you grow anything else up here? No. Okay. Just, you know, Chardonnay, three, three clones of Pino that we blend together. And then you get a lot of your grapes out of Lodi. 98% of the fruit comes out of that. But to give like back to your point of kind of being different and stuff, you do have a lot of wine varieties like you don't see at every tasting room in our area, which is nice. Yeah. Not at all. You don't find a lineup of Zinfandel, Petite Sorolla, Tempranillo, Ribera around? Yeah, absolutely. So we like the uniqueness of what we're doing. And we seem to have two customers that either they like variety. Their Pino fans are fine with Pino but they really like variety in their wines or they just don't like vino. And then they're looking for something else. Plenty of both. Yeah. I remember actually my first time I was introduced here winery was actually at a Women's Council of Realtors event. We had a wine bus that went to a couple of different stops, and this was one of our stops. And I instantly because I love big, bold reds. I was like, this is my place. I found my place. And then when I found out you had a tasting room in Newburgh, which is like closer to home for me too, I was like, oh, this is a win win for me. So I was a big fan for my first time. I visited for sure. Talk about getting the vineyard and like that. Like trying to pick the right location. Like we're there already. Grapes here. Did you plant? So we were already in the Newburgh tasting room. We got first, right? And the initial plan was for for Lucy and me to have, just us, the only employees will grow as big as we can grow. The two of us can handle zero days off. Well, all the things you to be ready? Yeah. There's no years off. Yeah. But then we. This property came up, came to our attention. They were. It was a couple here that ran a winery and retired. And they put on our newsletter that were retiring and had this property for sale and was interested. And one of our wine club members saw that and forward it to us and said we've been there. You might want to take a look at the property. Yeah. Cool. So it had a 15 year old piano and chardonnay vines at the time, and we didn't really want to do Chardonnay and piano because that wasn't our big, bold business model. Right? And so I went to the county and said, we're going to we're going to sell these grapes and just do our red wines. And they stamped my application, rejected. I said, well, this is a problem. Yeah, because we need to have a tasting room here. Yeah. So so what do we have to do differently to get that approved? And they said, well, you have to make wine from the grapes on the property. So we said okay it's not hard to do. We just added Pino and Chardonnay to our repertoire. And and then our Pino just last year won Best in show at the Portland Wine. Delicious. Yeah. So. Well and it is nice for you to have a piano because we are in piano country. So for the locals that do like that's their favorite. Not that you have it on the menu too. And that's really nice. Yeah. Yeah. And then also they get to see where it's made and harvested and all of those things. When you were doing work in Lodi for the ten years that you guys are volunteers, was I also like in the fields where you're learning about the grapes and like growing the grapes, or do you have a farming background at all? Not at all. But we learned because it was a hands on thing and we started from cleaning bins, to, to thinning shoots in the, in the vineyard. And we did everything every single step of the way because the guy had ten acres of Cabernet. Okay. And so we helped him do anything. We were, we were just students who wanted to be pupils. You just just you wanted to learn. I'm a student of life too. Like just learning. Yeah. A craft, even if I don't plan to have a job with it, I would like. I just love learning about different things. So we did that from the from the field to, and, and outdoors. A lot longer season there than it is here. So most of the year we were we were outdoors or then we moved into the barrel room. And so we did a little bit of everything with him teaching us not to to have a winery. Right. We just want to learn the business. Yeah. And John was curious. Yeah. I love that. And then, from what you learned there, have you still had teachers here that have helped you with the grapes, or did you partner with anybody like, hey, Nelson, I have this vineyard. Do you want to come talk to me about it? Our our connections are still pretty much Lodi. Yeah. We have a winemaker up here and two down in Lodi. And the one up here makes our our Pinot noir and our Chardonnay. And the two down there make everything else. We didn't have three. One of them passed away last year. Oh my gosh I'm sorry to hear that. He's the guy who taught us for ten years. Yeah Dave taught us everything about the business. What was it for you? Yeah, it's a huge loss. And if you're out front, there's 1947 Dodge truck out front. And that's Dave's truck. His wife gave us his truck. That's so sweet. She was up here last week and saw the truck. And when we pulled in the driveway and she saw his truck here. She said, I'm sure she got a Dave. Dave has a new home. Yeah. So glad that Dave is here with us. Because he is. He's why we're in business. I love us so much. So if you come visit the tasting room and Amity, make sure you take a selfie with the truck and tag Dave's truck. Take a take a picture with the truck we love. Yeah, I love that so much. So have you just been learning then by doing for farming out here? Yeah, we have a crew that does the work or arrangement with them. It's pretty much that we take care of the ground and they take care of the vines. Okay. And so they do that. We can do anything we want to do. We want to go drop fruit. We can do that. We want to thin shoots. We can do that. But we have them under contract to take care of the vines for us. Nice. And how did you go about finding the crew to do that. They were already here. Oh okay. That's nice. We inherited them and we interviewed them because the the wine that had been made here wasn't very good. And so when we bought the property I asked her, I told her look the grape here does not have a history. The wine doesn't have a history of being good. Yeah. What's the problem. Was it the winemaking problem. Is it the vines issue? No no no. These are grape vines. The grape vines that did not get enough TLC. So if you'll invest in the vines then you'll have you're going to be fine. And sure enough it went from an okay Pino to as I said best in show last year. Yeah it's amazing. So we put a lot of money and time into the vines. Yeah. Well, and it shows to you if you come out here to. You can see how much care and time you guys put into it when it comes to harvesting and stuff. I always joke around that. I think a lot of people envision like the I Love Lucy situation, just like stomping around in grapes and doing all these things. I don't think a lot of people realize a lot of times you harvest by hand. I'm assuming you said yes. Yeah. So how many people do you have to have out here for harvesting? Okay, so you're not going to believe this, okay. But this is the truth. So I hope everything's truth. But this is just. This is mind blowing. Yeah. So we only have two acres of grapes, 2000 vines, two acres of grapes. And when they start, they're paid by the bucket. Not by the hour. You've never seen people work this hard. They harvest these 2000 vines in 90 minutes. Oh my gosh. Really. It's like a crew, like maybe a dozen different people. And they are running up and down the road with buckets and grapes, throwing them in the bins, running back for 90 minutes. They're done. Oh my gosh. People are going to be calling, you know, like, who were they where people wanted to show up for for harvest. Can we come and watch us? Yeah, but don't be late because you'll get to turn it into, like, the harvest game. It's like Chardonnay versus Pino. Who's going to finish first? Have people rooting and sharing. It can be a whole event. And we can sit back in the observation long back to the state over and watch the overview of the vineyard. Like, I was just praying. Let's just like hoses and stuff, like cool off water stations. Oh my gosh, that's crazy. That is probably the fastest harvest I've heard. Well, it's a small vineyard. Well, but still, even just like that quick of movement. That's a crazy. Well done. Yeah. So late September, if you want a date on which you know. Yes, I'll be here. I'm going to watch that for sure. That's nuts. I know that you and your wife obviously have a big love for wine. And one thing that you guys do that I think is super cool is take tours overseas, like you go to France or different and do, like a little cruise, or sometimes it's a tour, like in town or you talk a little bit about that. Sure. We started in Bordeaux because we're big. We're big Bordeaux blend fans. And so we took a group of 50 people to wine club members to, to Bordeaux, France. And, and were there for, for two weeks. And then last year Lucien I went down to Santiago, Chile and Mendoza, Argentina, which is kind of their Napa valley of. Yeah, Chile and Argentina and loved it so much that we organized another tour to go down there. It's not a river cruise tour. It's a land cruise. Yeah, but we're taking 36 members down there. That's more bus and going to both of those markets again. In February of this year we went to, to Spain and Portugal. And that was, that was wonderful. It was a really good trip through the wine regions of, of Spain and Portugal. I took 56 wine club members on that. Yeah. It's a goal of mine to go on one of these like trips with you guys. When you do that do you have relationships over there in LA or like do you reach out and like say I'm a winery coming out this way that showcase your wine? Like, what all do you do for prep to go out there? We customize the package tours. They have package tours already, but we look at the winery part of it because even though it's a wine tour, a lot of times they'll throw in some extra castles or churches or things to see. We nixed most of those. To put in more wine. Yeah. You're like we're here for the grapes. We're we're here for the rest of the wine tour. People are coming for wineries right. Yeah. So we vary those tours to, to customize them. Heavy heavy wine. So we went to to it's my kind of vacation. Oh it's good. Tomorrow Spain which is the birthplace of Tempranillo. So in Bordeaux which we're drinking Tempranillo today because you and I both love Tempranillo in Bordeaux we went to the birthplace of Kaprizov. Yeah. And so. And we just booked another tour in Eastern Europe. Well, we're we're going from Vienna, Austria, down through Serbia and Croatia, which is the birthplace of Zinfandel. Oh my gosh. So we're hitting all the places that the grapes that we love so much. And it's worked out really well. Yeah. And so you're gone for normally two weeks. How many wineries do you think that you hit on average during those two weeks. Dozen. That's I mean A22A day or so. You can't do much more than that. Yeah. And then do you guys do like meals together or do you guys separate and people go off and kind of do their own thing? Some of both. Yeah. Usually on the two week trip a week of that is on a cruise ship. Small cruise ship only holds 150 people. Sure. And so we're back on the ship. Sometimes it's like half the ships, you guys. It is. Yeah. They only give us half the ship. Yeah. So we've sold it out in two weeks, and they filled the other half of the ship with people from other parts of the country, around the world. But it's a combination of being on the ship and being off at vineyards. That's amazing. And do you have to be a wine club member to go with you guys, or can you? You do? Yep. Okay. Why? Because we fill it up with our wine club. Yeah. Which makes sense. You guys have a great wine club. Do you want to talk a little bit about the wine club membership? Well, we we created a wine club. Like, we would actually want to join, which maybe, I don't know. You know, I've been a member for four years now, I think. Yeah. Yeah. But there's no fee to join. You can quit any time. Most of like a year period or something. You can cancel any time. Yeah. And you choose the wines each quarter. So I send out a list. I love that a few weeks in advance of here's all the wines that are available. What do you want. And you pick. Yeah. It's I don't want we don't want to send people wine that they don't want. I, we belong to several wine clubs. And every one of those we get wine that isn't necessarily our favorite. Right. We didn't want to do that. The people you always have the option to choose what you want. Yeah. The couple things that your wine club offers that I really appreciate is one. Obviously I frequent a lot because I like to bring visitors and guests and clients and things like that, but I don't always need to do a tasting because I already know, like, what my favorites are. I love that I can just have a glass of wine for my friends, have a tasting, and like, chitchat with them. I love that I can switch it out for my favorites. Or sometimes I'm like, oh, actually, I'm kind of in the mood for this. It's not even that. It's not one of my favorites, but I just want to switch it out. And then also, I like that when I bring guests and stuff, they also get to enjoy my discount while they're there with me, which is always nice too. So I had a blender with me yesterday in our tasting room in Newberg, and he went home with wine. He was like, my wife will be modifying. I'll take something home. And so you take a Pinot Noir home tour. So yeah, it was nice to be able to, like, share my discount with him, too. It feels like a common sense wine club to me. It's like, well, why wouldn't you do that? Yeah. And if friends are there, why wouldn't they get your wine club price? I've been to places where you got all. But, the members all buy the wine, and we got saying you give me the money. Yeah. It's just, like, silly. Yeah, it's a silly game. Just. Yeah. Well, and I like a cousin, like, either coming up here or being in the tasting room. It really just also feels like an extension of, like, my own home, because, like, I'm just like, oh, yeah, this is like, my place to, like, welcome. I want to show you the wine and things. And that's what like the wine clubs are meant to do, is. And like, create ambassadors for you that bring people in to. We want it to feel like when you come here, like this is your backyard. Totally. And so we didn't put $1 million into marble columns and fancy stuff, and a person to park your car is like, not right. This is a casual experience. Come casual and. Yeah. So you'll feel like you're home. Yeah. What is some tasting advice that you would give? So if I was like a brand new baby novice wine drinker, and I was visiting Oregon for the first time, what's a couple of tips and tricks you would give them for doing a wine tasting? Don't overthink it. That's a great advice. There's so much you can get as technical as you want to get. We try to keep it simple. That's why we don't give tasting notes. I don't want to tell you that you're going to smell cinnamon and a hint of clove on them. You know what you taste and smell is what you taste and smell. Right. And you like it or you don't. And start there. And then it helps people to feel like like they're not being talked down to. Right. They're like oh that's all I have to do is well I do like that. Or I didn't care for that one as much as the first one. There's no wrong answers. Right. You're not going to be like offended at someone's like, oh, it sounds not really my favorite, but I loved this. Yeah. I think that's why, some people get nervous about going wine tasting because I think they think they have to, like, speak to it or, like, is anyone I'm going to judge me if I'm not like, oh, I just get notes of vanilla on that kind of a thing. So I do like that. You and others in the area are very welcoming, and it is casual, like you don't have to be all fancy. Sunday. Best coming up to the winery. Kind of a thing. What? Talk a little bit about the different wines. Like what was some of your first bottles? And now you guys have, like, quite a few wines that you offer your menus quite large. What wines did you start with and then how did you decide to grow? We make 10 to 12 wines every year. We started we made our very first bottle in 2009. We made a barrel of Tempranillo. And that was part of our education with, with Dave. And it was it. My wife I don't have children. And the picture of us in our tasting room with us standing next to a half ton of our first Tempranillo grapes is like two very proud parents. Oh for sure, I'm fat. We are so proud of that. Yeah. And so we we nurtured those grapes for a year and a half and every weekend. We couldn't wait to get that back out to the to the barrel room to see how our wines do and run tests on it and stuff. Yeah, I'm sure that was so rewarding seeing it from start to finish. And we still have about a case of it left. You know, you do 16 years later. Yeah, I love that. It's not very good, but it's still it's nostalgia. Yeah. And so the next year we made two barrels and there was like five barrels. Pretty quick. We had we had a lot of wine, but we realized the process is a two year process and time we buy the grapes until that's in your hands, that's two years. Yeah. That's that's a that's a lot of investment. Absolutely. So we can't afford to go wrong. And that's why we price all of our wines at the same price. Because we remove price from your taste buds this way people buy what they like. Yeah. Not what they like based on the price. Right. Because price really does affect your taste buds. Yeah for sure. So for that two year gamble period for us we need to know what people like. So we can get more of those grapes. And for us it's been Tempranillo. Zinfandel and Petites are had been the three anchors of our lineup. Yeah that makes sense because you know like like we said you can't get that in a lot of tasting rooms in this area either. So like it makes sense that those are your we like those in the lineup all the time. So unless we just run out of it. We have those three. And that way we make smaller lots of Barbera and Petit Verdot and other things that are best in show blend things that we work in around those other two. Yeah. But we try to keep those three all the time. I love the best in show. That's one I like to give, my friends and family that are just starting to dabble in reds because it's a red blend, and I think it's so nice and smooth. It's not too dry, it's not too sweet. It's like right in the middle and it's always well received. But I think the name Best in Show is like perfect for oh, we name it that. Not because it won anything, right, but because we donate money from that wine to a dog charity every year. Oh, I did not know that. That's I think oh that's amazing. We'll take a different dog charity. Oh my gosh. Now I love it even more. That's the thing I always said was like, well, it's best in show. I've never had one person where I've given it to them and they're like, I don't know about that. You know? So I was like, oh, it must be like one of their top producers. Oh my gosh, that is so interesting. I have no idea. My sauvignon and patisserie blend. Yeah. How did you decide to donate to the dog show then. I don't know where that started. We have two dogs. We're big dog fans. Yeah. And we just, I don't remember getting started. I came up with the name Best in Show because the dog world, they call it best in show. In the wine world, they call it best of show. Right. I don't know, I just had the two different things. Yeah. So we called it that tomato. Tomato? Yeah. Yeah. But we pick different, different dog charities and and have fun doing that. I love that. That's so cool. Now I'm going to have to tell everybody like, hey, if you guys get best in show, it's actually it goes to a charity to say know. So you might want to talk to you about it. Unless you don't like dogs apparently. Then I'll just like do twists. I'm a little bit, I love that so much. So how did you then grow up to, like, 12 wines a year? Because you were saying you started with a couple, and then how did you go? Well, more. When we go to a tasting room, we like to taste different wines and we would frequent the same wineries often. And so going back, having the same wine each time, I was like, would be nice if there was something different. So. So we like to our menu changes almost every other month. It was sold out of something or we just have it with that many wines we have to change our menu. But it's a part of the variety. We want to have 10 or 12 wines because I want there to be more than just 4 or 5 wines that you have all the time. Yeah, I think that would get old. Yeah it does. And then since you have two winemakers in Lodi and one here is bottling, hopping and Lodi two then and bottling, having here or around March is when we bottle. Okay. All of them. Yeah. It's been in the barrel for 18 months by then because we harvest typically in September. So by March a year and a half later, that's when we're bottling. Okay. Yep. And then do you have everything stored in one spot or like so everything comes up here this year our temperature controlled warehouse is always 55 degrees. Yeah. And it's insulated and protected and. Yeah. We bring it up in a truck. So we bottle in March. So sometime around April. Well we can still temperature still. Yeah. We bring it up on two semi trucks from California. Put it in the warehouse. Okay. Stays happy there. Yeah for sure. I like I said I was in the tasting room yesterday and I asked, like, are there any pressing questions I should ask Steve? And one that was suggested is who's your favorite employee? And you cannot say your wife because she's your partner and not an employee. But I was like a joke. I was like, oh, it's him on the spot. Like, which tasting room person is your favorite? You have a great. I'll never answer that. No, I know it's like choosing your favorite child. You have a great stuff there. Like, it doesn't matter who's in there. It's always a great time. I just we realized the other day that in our nine and a half years in business, we've never lost an employee. That's I mean, no one has quit and we've never fired anybody. Like, does that ever happen? Well, especially if you think about what has happened even in the last five years, like tasting rooms are closed, like people weren't out and about. You and I were just talking to that, like wine sales have been down a little bit more because mocktails are at an all time high. The younger generation isn't drinking the way some of the older generations have. And, how is that like impacted like how you think about how many like, hum, how much grapes to actually turn into wine or how many things to bottle. Yeah, we're going to have to cut our production a little bit because our sales are down slightly. Not nearly as much as what we hear. The industry is down. Yeah, but but traffic is what concerns me the most, because our wine club is so strong that our wine club is. And loyal. Yeah, our wine club is our business. Right. And the, the tasting traffic is down because so many fees have gone up so high that people stopped going tasting. Yeah, you could go tasting for, you know, 3 or 4 wineries at $10 apiece and make a day of it. Yeah. And now a $10 tasting fee is almost unheard of. It's it really is unheard of like in this area. I'd say the average tasting fees, like 45 bucks. We opened nine years ago. Our tasting. If it was $10, it's still $10. Yeah. To me it's bizarre. It's a barrier to entry. And people want to taste the wine before they buy it. Right. But so so why would you make it difficult for them to taste. The higher you raise that price the more difficult you make it for them to taste. Yeah for sure because they're lowering ours to $5 because I want people in the door. Because when they come in the door they're going to buy, they buy wine. Yeah absolutely. I, we rarely collect a tasting fee because people buy wine. Yeah. If I do collect a tasting fee, I consider it a loss. That means you didn't like my wine enough to buy a bottle of it. Yeah, we lost that. Absolutely. Well, and I've noticed too, like, sometimes the tasting fees are 35 to $45. And then even if you buy two bottles in, the average bottle at that place is like 60 to 75. The only wave like one of the tasting fees. And it's like, well, this stop just cost me 200 bucks. And so to your point, you can only go to one of those, right? A lot of times, especially if you're just out for the afternoon. So I do appreciate that that like you have that different mindset of just come enjoy the wine. Well I would go home. I wish it didn't affect everyone. Right. But just as a rising tide lifts all boats, lowering tide lifts all boats. That's true. And so when people don't go out tasting I don't have a shot at them. That's true. You don't go anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not happy right now with all these high tasting. Yeah for sure. But anyone listening now, you know it's only $10 and you can come enjoy this beautiful view if you're in Amity or if you're in the Newberg area, pop into the tasting room there too as well. With that being said, too, we're also talking about I wish that more people realized, like everything that went into wine making, like we've talked a lot about it today, like the years it took you to like learn the business, plus hiring others, growing the grapes. Like when I buy wine, I know I'm, like, supporting a farmer, a whole team. Like you said, you have a whole team that works. The grapes, the tasting room, the family. Like. That's why it's so much more to me than just like, oh, bottle of wine fun. That's fun. Like, it's like supporting local and multiple people. It's not just you and your wife. It's like all the families you employ and everybody else that's also on your team. So don't forget that when you're out shopping and drinking and, buy the bottle to support local for sure. Is there any messaging that you would give a young winemaker out there, or somebody that's thinking about getting into the business, like words of wisdom? Only only to do what you love and don't ever compromise your passion? Yeah, I love that. I've spent my entire life in careers that I work when people play. And so whether you're out wine tasting, I'm working. When I was in the health and fitness industry, you know, after work you would go work out, do your work. That was my work. Always been in places where people come into my place in a good mood and leave in a better mood. Yeah. And so I, I would never compromise doing something that I'm passionate about. I would never just have a job. Job. I've got to love what I do. I'm not doing it. Yeah. I love that so much. Thank you so much for having me here. I really appreciate it. Cheers. One more time to you. Thank you for teaching me that. Thank you, everyone for listening and I hope to see you next week. Cheers.