Episode 24 - Ken Trox - Founder & Artist of Trox Designs

In this episode of The Realtor Who Wines (iced coffee edition—because sawdust and wine don’t mix), Rashelle Newmyer sits down in Newberg, Oregon, with designer and artist Ken Trox to explore his creative journey from corporate design to custom craftsmanship.

Ken’s career began in graphic design and branding for Fortune 500 companies, but his true passion came to life when he traded pixels for products. What started with a Glowforge in his garage and a few night markets has grown into a global business—selling cribbage boards, custom lights, and even viral “snot box covers” on Etsy.

With humor and honesty, Ken shares the highs and lows of small business ownership (“it’s like being in a love-hate relationship”), his playful approach to experimenting with stains and materials, and the joy of creating things you can actually hold. He delves into sustainability, upcycling, and finding ways to transform waste into opportunities, all while keeping design at the heart of everything he does.

They also talk holiday shopping, why September is the best time to order custom gifts, how shipping delays can throw a wrench into last-minute plans, and why shopping local makes a real difference. Ken invites listeners to the Art Harvest Studio Tour in October, where his workshop (alongside 40 others between Newberg and McMinnville) will open to the public for a behind-the-scenes look at the creative process. He also shares insights into pop-up markets, how face-to-face feedback has shaped his products, and what it takes to balance production time with community events.

For those ready to support small businesses this holiday season, you can find Ken’s work on Etsy, at TroxDesign.com, and through his social media channels. Whether you’re local or across the country, his one-of-a-kind pieces bring together artistry, functionality, and a little East Coast grit.

Pour yourself a cup of coffee (or a glass of wine), and enjoy this lively conversation about creativity, resilience, and the beauty of handmade.

Thank you for listening! Connect and collaborate with Realtor Rashelle on any of her social media platform pages > https://linktr.ee/RealtorRashelle

Transcript

0:31

Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the realtor who wines. I'm Rachelle Newmeyer, your local realtor who loves to wine. Although today we're drinking iced coffee because we are in a shop with lots of machinery, saws and things. So, you know, safety first. But Ken, thank you so much for having me. Cheers to you. Cheers to you. Thank you. So, Ken, do you mind introducing yourself and telling everybody a little bit about what you do here? Okay, so, I'm Ken tracks. With Ken trucks designs or trucks as ice is what it is. I'm a graphic designer and industrial designer. I make things as well as design things and. Yeah, that's kind of, all over the board with drawing. Talk a little bit about your background. Like before you got to, like where we are today. Like the graphic designs and things you used to do in your previous life before you got the wood shop a long, long time ago in a land far away, far away and a little town called California. Well, Pawtucket, Rhode Island. Yeah. Like in a lot of graphic design. And, Hasbro was like one of the companies I worked for. So I was playing with toys and doing graphic design for packaging. I did work for the homes Group and Honeywell, doing fans, packaging, sort of things like that, marketing materials. So there's like 20, 30 years worth of, graphic design. And then on top of that, you know, illustrations and lots of drawing. Yeah. And then when you came to Oregon, before you came to Oregon, did you do woodworking before you moved out here? Is woodworking something that kind of came about as you got here? Well, the, the woodworking kind of came around when my father would go to work, and I was seven years old. I would play with a table saw unsupervised. We're lucky you're here. I did a lot of the like, you know, tinkering with tools and woods and stuff. Just building things as a kid. And then, I was really into drawing those into drawing and painting and that sort of thing. But as I started doing the, the packages for, like, you know, the toys and things like that, I was just like, oh, I really frickin love doing this stuff. But I'm like, yeah, I'd like to actually make the thing. So that's in the package too. Yeah. And so I was also doing web design at that point in time, and my problem for that whole spectrum was essentially as you turn the device off and it goes away versus, you know, this is tangible and that's sort of the point of being able to touch things. Yeah. And you can tell by his accent he's not from Oregon. So talk a little bit about like how long you've been in Oregon and so from Massachusetts, that is and live there most of my life. And now I'm out here for about 12 years now. My brother told me to lose that accent as soon as I got here. I have not been able to do that. I don't think you should. I think it helps you stand out, and it definitely shows your personality. Yeah, because it comes in attitude with that, too. Yeah. Okay. Oh my God. Yeah. You're, I'm in a significant other. Well, and I don't think you guys coined those term by any means, but Marcel. Yes, yes we do. Which always cracks me up. You know, New Hampshire and Maine really love to call us tourist. Coming from Massachusetts, that's our affection. Affectionate name for us is Matt Holes. Coming up to do the tourism. Much in the same way that Oregonians do the Californian thing. I'm not sure what they have for the name, but oh, like us, I don't know. I've never heard us call them anything but Californian. Well, just just call. Go back. So talk about what led you to where we are today. I know, like, originally started with, like a smaller shop at home and then obviously it grew to this much bigger space. Yeah. So I went to school out here, for industrial design. I got my degree in, like, 2015, and I was doing, an agency with a couple of friends, and we had an agency thing going, and I just couldn't deal with, the whole agency component. And I really wanted to get into this side of the business of making things versus, designing stuff. Yeah. And so I got my first laser cutter. I was a little glowforge. And, it started in this little thing, and I was doing little night markets and, Christmas markets and things like that, and still doing the, the, the graphic design is my day job. And, then Covid hit and Etsy blew up and I had my stuff on Etsy, but after its, Covid hit, then, you know, this just blew up. Yeah. And then they started selling, like here in the U.S. and beautiful part about ads is essentially you can sell to the entire world. So I've sold my lights to Australia, Japan, all around Europe. Canada. Yeah. And here. So it was just like, wow. So it just blew up and started off my little garage and then a tent in the driveway and another tent in the driveway. And then the third tent, the driveway started looking like a homeless camp. So that was that point was just like, yeah, I need to find a space. Yeah. Oh yeah. And talk about the evolution of your products. Like what was one of like the first products that you started making. So it was with a little glowforge I had, I couldn't get very big products. So essentially it was like little, nightlights, little candlelight type of things. And then, the cribbage boards actually started with that was like, okay, this was as big as the thing could make it. So, it just started stacking them up and creating this stuff. And it's kind of fun in that respect because it's an evolution of process, just like how these boards have evolved since day one till now is kind of incredible. And and the amount of engineering that goes into this stuff for sure, you know, for mail to get the weight down and that component. And then also setting into the, the premium components, you know, making one, deciding like which one to use and all of that stuff. Yeah. And then people's designs on top of that. So I do custom designs with that whole thing. And then, you know, people sit there say, oh, that's awesome, but can you make me this challenge accepted. That's. Yeah. Well, and that's where like, your design background comes into play too, because you really can envision that. And like, you are creating a whole design for people. So like, for example, like this Oregon design where it's like people camping in the little, van and things like that. And then people can also have it personalized on the back, like a little message to a loved one and things like that. I've seen you make some really cool ones too, that were like, for a veteran. And it was like the ship he served on and things like that, like a family member had ordered, which is so cool. Yeah. That was like one, there was a woman. She was buying it for her sister, but her sister was, like, huge into mermaids and her husband served on I figure out what ship it was, but his port of, his favorite port was, Lisbon, over in Portugal. And, so I basically designed this thing where it's like a mermaid floating up and right underneath the ship that he was at was the Rock of Gibraltar. So. Yes. And then, people have, like, sent you pictures of their pets, and you've done, like, their pets on their and sports teams. And sometimes there's even been like a collaboration of, like, random stuff too. Like, I like Yoda, but can you put them in a San Fran shirt or something? You know, like random stuff? Yes. Random is what I like. Customization is, it's all about customization, like, micro manufacturing in a sense, but it's all about custom. I mean, yeah, you can go to the store and just get something straight off the shelf, but this is where that component comes into play. And my design capability is like, okay, yeah, like we can totally do this. I can conceptualize it and then send them proofs to, let them kind of collaborate with that. Yeah. Okay. This is great or no, no. Can we change this? Do that. And you know, or some people can't visualize. So essentially like when I send them they're like, oh like yeah, holy cow. Then consider this instead. Or add this in addition to that. So yeah. And then what size cribbage board. Now you have like multiple sizes. What was the first size you did. Was it like the traditional size or was it the smaller one. No, it was this guy. And then the the little travel board was basically some people were like, oh, we love this. But, you know, I want to take this camping. So that's how the little boy got, you know, brought into circulation. Yeah. And then from cribbage boards, what was a very did you do light snacks or was it the tissue boxes or what did you move to next. So it started with the cribbage boards, but then it turned into these lights here. And this is the first light from this design, which, me and my friend Nick, had collaborated on, and he's like, oh, let's, let's do this Tree of Life thing. So I was like, okay. And then I started like playing with it. And we built those for night markets and things like that. And then that evolved into Etsy and then that really took off. And this actually this light right here is result of the guy. I was like, oh, I totally love the light. But, you know, can you get rid of the legs? And just like I need to put it in like a little like on a trophy thing like that. Yeah. So he needed some height requirement. So I'm like, yeah, sure. Like customize it. Like it's all about customization. Yeah. Whatever you want. He wants to make it. And then essentially then I engineer all the parts and everything in here is actually created through the laser cutter. It's all created from wood except for, like, the bulb base. Like, all the parts here are made by me. Like, it's not like manufactured off the shelf somewhere. And then the tissue boxes somebody asked me was like, hey, I love your tree of life. Like the whole light thing, but can you make me a tissue box? And I was just like, okay. And I was just like, all right. So I made the thing, you know, gave her, like, four of them, I think she ordered. So, I put it out there and nobody bought it for a year. Like, it just had it up there listed for a year, and then, like, the next year, suddenly I was, like, selling 20 a week, and then I'm like, what the heck? Like, yeah, they just went viral. Must have Etsy must have done something. Yes. Etsy was like, oh, let's push this. People keep searching tissue boxes. Let's show Ken's. So I like to refer to him with the snot box covers. You know, it's like even now I'm going to be known for snot box covers. I'm like, okay, here, this not this snot box guy. Yeah, but now, now I'm actually going to turn those into lights. Like, you know, there's already a component where it's like, oh, this is just lends itself to that design. So definitely, lights is kind of where I'm going to be going in the grand scheme of things. But first as well. Yeah, I was going to say, and I know furniture is on your wish list and horizon like tables and shelves and all those kinds of things, chairs maybe. No, I'm going to stay away from chairs. Yeah. That is just such another realm of, I don't want to get into chairs. Unless, of course, it comes as part of, like, somebody wants a dining setting. That's right. On a design motif that I'm working with. And I'm like, all right, you know, as a one off type of thing, but, chairs, I'm like, yeah, no, I'll let somebody else handle that role. And, I'll stay with the light components or structures from that. Yeah. What has been one thing that like, has kind of surprised you over the last few years, like going from, like the garage to here, like things along the way, like, I know shipping was one thing that, like you mentioned, like trying to figure out how to make products not weigh a certain amount so they can ship for a reasonable price. What are some other things that have popped up along the way that you're like, oh crap, I didn't even think about that. So yeah, well shipping again. Yeah. But it's funny because like, I have a graphic design client. He wants to talk about shipping all day. And I was like, no, no, it's all good shipping. And he's talking about the price of shipping. And I'm like, I don't care. It's free shipping. You either throw it in the price or you don't like, you know, but and essentially, if you remember Ace Ventura Pet Detective, like, you know, he kicks the box across the field and like, you know, he kicks it all the way up to the guy, and the guy shakes the box, and it sounds like it's broken. Probably is. Yeah, for sure. So I've had to. I've had, like, these big, beautiful lights. The one like, yeah, behind you there. You know, it's like my I had multiple of those destroyed like by UPS. And so I've become a packaging engineer in addition to being the product maker, I now have to sit there and think about structure for shipping. So that's been kind of a real big component. One of the beautiful things about moving out of the tent here into the building is when I was out there operating the table, saw it was raining out like the rain, with a little bit rolling underneath my feet. The poor, like, it's it's like I never got electrocuted again. We're lucky that you're here. There's always that fear, you know? It's just like. Okay, well, and I'm sure you don't want the water to be around a bunch of the wood either. Yeah, it has definitely been like a added bonus to have climate control. So that way the wood stays a consistent, thickness and plain, and it doesn't twist and warp and things like that. It's funny because, like, as we talk about this, I'm like, I don't want to get stuck with what people actually call me a woodworker. And I'm like, please do not insult woodworkers like that. I am a designer first and foremost. I make things, I make beautiful things. You know this. Yes, you do, but I'm pretty modest about it. But I'm like, I am not a woodworker like some people. Yeah, I look at some of the people who make woodworking things and they're just so, like, gorgeous. And my buddy actually knows a lot about woodworking. But I myself design. I know how to call him up going, hey, how do I deal with this? Yeah. Have you partnered a lot with well, I know this, but will you talk about how you've partnered with other people and like, different designers or like you just said, the woodworker like people you've reached out to along the way as you've been building your business to help you grow? Yeah. And that's actually one of the things that I miss the most in that respect. Like since I moved out of Portland, it's just like, my friends are now an hour away. So like, they don't get to come down here as often. So the interaction with that is just been, a little, little less. Yeah. I think that's probably the hardest part about what I do is essentially I'm by myself. So I, you know, I have help from time to time. I get high school kids to help me out. I basically helping them establish themselves in, like, but I also give them the freedom to, explore and like and learn things and, you know, ask questions and. Yeah, like, mentor them. Yeah. So I've been doing that and it's been kind of a cool thing when you've done like, you're known around Newberg. So we're in Newberg, Oregon right now and like different businesses now, you you've participated in like, different community things and stuff. Talk about like some of those partnerships and relationships are you've designed a few things for even like local businesses. Yeah. So in addition to, like cribbage boards and lights and things like that, I've done lights for retails, retail shops, ceiling lights, outdoor signage, you know, big signage. Yeah. You know, eight feet long and, you know, three feet tall. So it's like, you know, big things and then cash wraps and retail counters and things like that display units on, like the city you like. We're helping work on the stamp for like drains wasn't it, or. Oh yeah. It was for the school system and basically it was creating a rubber stamp for them. So essentially it used a laser cutter again to create this stamp for them to basically make t shirts for, you know, the water department for their project. As the kids get out of school, like they have this special project day that they have for the water department. So been working with that. Yeah. I think well, and the reason I wanted to bring that up is like, I think sometimes like you are known locally for these products, like the cribbage boards and lights and stuff, but just to highlight all the other kind of design projects that you do that like people might not see because like you mentioned earlier, like a website isn't always tangible. People aren't going to know, like, oh, Ken helped design this website, you know, so talk a little bit about the like, digital design part of your job. So yeah, as was saying, like, a graphic designer, I do the branding components. As well as the marketing materials that go with that. So essentially a like I'm on my own business, but I've also been as part of like, you know, corporate America, you know, top 500 business fortune 500. Yeah. Those type of businesses. So I understand, like, all the components that go down with the brand and how to work with your logos and, incorporating that into your stores, your products as a product designer. So I also know the product component of all. Yeah. To elaborate on the design component, essentially, it's like, you know, I have a graphic design, I use illustrator, Photoshop and all the things like that. And now Canva included in that respect. No, I oh gosh, don't get them started. No way. No, I'm actually I'm not hating on AI, but if there is a component to that, it is like, yeah, like, well, I'm a designer. Like why why are you trying to replace me with AI? Yeah, but you know, it's human or about human. Engagement. Right now with humans. So it's always back to the digital aspect. Yeah. But I also do 3D modeling and things like that. So I make prototypes out of foam or plastics, you know, 3D printing, all that sort of stuff to help people develop their products and put it on the marketplace or help them with the branding. Yeah. When you were first starting to actually, like, build tangible products, how did you decide on pricing? Like did it take you a minute, like especially since you started the price of what has changed? Sometimes it goes up, sometimes it's back down. Like, do you adjust your pricing accordingly, or has that been a learning curve for you? Yes, I just my price with, the market. But one of the things too is also where do you want to be in the marketplace as a brand, as a, you know, individual? How much do you want to make out of this? And, and unfortunately with the cribbage boards in particular, it's a race to the bottom, essentially. It's like people are always trying to like, drop the Price is so much competition in that marketplace. I understand, like Etsy, jewelers who make stuff for Etsy and things like that. They're also in this problem of like the race to the bottom. But essentially I basically just price myself way up on the premium end, and I make premium type of products versus, you know, like anybody can just make this like, yeah, well, and like you said, you do a lot of customization. So it's not like you can just turn. And Bernie is like you're actually sitting down designing a whole element of it. And then building the coverage board. Yeah, there's the digital art or design component to that. But then there's also just, you know, thinking about a brand's, you know, where do you want to be? Do you want to be the entry point, you know, brand or you want to be a premium brand? What what are you who's your market? Yeah, it's kind of funny. It's one of the things I don't know who my market is, you know, it's. So what are you, the social media person for that? Like, I don't know anybody like us. Yeah. What has been I know there's been a couple times that there's been challenges with getting material, especially like us. Natural disasters happen and things like that. Talk about figuring that out in the moment and pivoting when that kind of stuff happens. Or do you just message clients and say, hey, it's going to be a minute because, a hurricane hit and I can't get certain products. So far, I've been kind of lucky in that respect, though. Prices went ridiculous during Covid. But then pretty much anything it was a wood product at that point went crazy. Then some, some Russian dude went and invaded, like, you know, Ukraine got like my my point being with that essentially, Baltic birch was like, you know, what are the staples of what I work with for materials? And that cost just went up through the roof for a while. Is since settled down. But like it was a scare for a while. Like we're going to get these parts and. Yeah. And who knows what the relationship will be with later on for with China. Because essentially like all these lights have cords and plugs and bulb sockets. So and that's where they're made right now. Yeah. There's no real American solutions for these things. Well does it on your lamps, the, this I don't know what to call that. Oh. But like send it back. Yeah. Well, thank you for reminding me because I completely forgot. I'm sorry. He, like, blocked it out. He was like, it's a time I refuse. I just said I'm sorry. I needed to show that tissue box. He got. Yeah. For those poor people are down and. No. Now, Asheville, North Carolina. Like, I forget if it was last year or the year before, where the hurricane blew through and just like tore tore Asheville and a few other towns are down there in North Carolina and Tennessee, I believe it was. Yeah. But yeah, like those, that's where you source this material. Yeah. The mica material was being sourced from there. So there was like a quite a back up for a few weeks, probably about a month. It took for them to kind of get back on the ground and do a thing and which is actually kind of remarkable. Remarkable. Like I was worried that like it was going to take longer than that, and that you'd have to find a different source. Yeah. I, I don't know, like how close. I mean, it's one of the things like we're here in Oregon. And the funny thing is, like, my relatives are back east and they're like, oh my goodness. Like, you know, are you guys going to flood watch? It's like it's a big state, mom. Yeah. It's happened in like one little town like way over here. Yeah sure. So like, their factory could have been like, you know, three blocks away from all the damage. And so I don't exactly know their of. But I'm happy to see that, you know, they came back online and hopefully lives are returning to normal for them, so. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I hope so too. But yeah, there is a sort of, that component of like, all right, where am I gonna get materials from? And, as FSC, forest. No, I was like, I don't know, don't look at me. Yeah. Anyways, FSC type woods, which is certified, woods. So I try to get the premium products essentially, sustainable. I try to work with that sort of components, but. Yeah, for sure. Well, and do you do that even like here? Like when you cut, a piece of material, let's say for a cribbage board, any of extra materials, you're always like, what can I do with this extra material? Like you're always trying to come up so that, like, as much as possible stuff isn't wasted, which I love. Right. And that's actually where, like, I make a bunch of little, Christmas ornaments and things like that. That's essentially like how I've been upcycling that component. Yeah. There's a project I've been working on my head for a while now for like a little viola for I think it's called the Joy program here in Yamhill County. And, basically they need, little violas to, for like 5 to 7 year olds, like when they first like, before they get their first viola or violins. You know, they basically use these things as like, you know, practice dummies. So they don't or if they drop it, they don't drop like a violin, like. Right. Yeah. So they get used to it and do that sort of thing. But that's one of the things I was thinking about with upcycling stuff. So like, okay, like how do I utilize this thing to make life so that way, so you don't just have all this waste to how did you decide on like what stains and stuff to use like so on the cribbage board you have different stains that make the wood different colors and things like that. Was that just like practice and like playing around? Or did anybody say you should use this brand or these colors? No. Essentially it's all about play. I play, I love what I do, I hate what I do. I'm in an abusive relationship, like. Yeah. Isn't this my, my, my culture is telling. Just like. Yeah, small business is a basically a domestic abuse relationship. Like, it's just like, Yeah, it just keeps beat me. But something comes up. Relationships amazing. And other days you're like, well, yeah. Yeah, I love what I do. What was I thinking? Why? Why am I in business for myself? This is hard. I could just go 9 to 5 and pick up a paycheck and just. Just go with life. That would be boring. You would get bored so fast. But you did. That's why you left. I used to do a ton of camping, so I would go out mountain biking and canoeing, kayaking and all kinds of fishing and things like that. I have as much free time on your business now. I play in my cave. Yeah, and I have a great time with it. Yeah. So there's a trade off? Yeah, well, I'm sure the artisan you love just like playing with the different stands to decide which ones actually work best for you and best for your products. Oh, yeah. It is kind of amazing to like because I started with, like, black stain just to see. I was like, well, what happens if I laser this and like, warp? And then the wood actually turns like golden brown underneath. So you may not like, truly see it had on almost like camouflage. Yeah. You know, you look at it from an angle, then you get this like sort of gold component to it. And people really love that. Like that was something that really took off with the whole who knows what's going to happen. I have to make things, I throw it up on the internet, see what happens. And sometimes they buy it. Sneaky. But this episode will actually be out in September, which is right before the holiday season. How far in advance should people order custom items to get it in time for the holidays? Well, to make my life easier, show up in September. You know, I can make things custom, especially locally. Pretty much like three weeks before Christmas. You can show up at that last moment, but if you want something truly designed and take the time to care about it. Yeah. Show up. Well. And also to give time for shipping, because sometimes, again, snow and ice and all those things, like if they're not local, like getting it across the country, sometimes it's impacted by the weather. Non-local. Yeah. You should definitely be, you know, considering at least two weeks before it needs to be at your place. So I would aim for November at the latest. That's what I was talking about the whole September component, which. Excuse me. I'm doing the Art harvest tour studio tour in October, which is the first couple weekends in October where my studio here will be open to the public. Yeah, that's a perfect time to come. You buy a button, you get to come to my studio, as well as 40 others between here in McMinnville. Yeah. Which you can come in here and see what I'm doing. And then also like, oh, I love what you're doing here, but can you make me X? And yeah, from that, like, bam, you can do that and some and you will have like a handful of products that if there's something people are like, oh perfect. I wanted, University of Oregon cribbage board and you already have one made, so they'll just take it that day. But yeah, the Art harvest tour for anybody that doesn't know what it is, it's to really let people like can who don't have normal store hours are brick and mortar, because some of the artists that participate don't have a brick and mortar. So their art will be set up and other locations, but it's a way to like stop by people's studios or to see their art set up for a temporary time somewhere else. But when he said, you buy a button, you buy that through the Harlem Valley Culture Center, the Chamber of Commerce in town, or McMinnville, or you can, buy it online through Art harvest Studio tours.com. Yeah, but that button is what basically is your ticket to go to all the studios and stuff. And then you know for sure like, oh, you could spend a whole Saturday touring studios and then while you're out here, of course, stop by a winery and grab a glass of wine. Yeah, exactly. It's Friday, Saturday, Sunday is. And actually, some of the wineries have artists who don't have their own like, studio. Yeah. For at home or their home is not convenient to have a whole bunch of people rolling through for sure. Last year I had about 170 people come through, which is basically Friday, Saturday and Sunday as it's open, which is awesome. The public to come through. So yeah, if you're thinking about something to do, that's a good time to come shop and shop small for the holidays. Yeah, and shop local, which is awesome. I eat, yeah, I have to eat all year round. So, you know, show up at any time. Yeah. Just knock on the door. And that's just like, you know, I make these lights and things like that, but I also make, you know, Pop marketing materials and stuff like that, you know, little aluminum bread, business cards, coasters, light things like that, like all kinds of things that, you know, help small businesses instead of buying it from China. You know, you can buy it from somebody here locally. Yeah. Name tags we talked about doing like the what name tags and stuff like that too, or plastics or metal. Yeah, I have now I have a laser that I'll basically engrave on metal. So I'm like and cut metal. Some sky's the limit now. Yeah. He can customize whatever you want. You don't have the imagination I do. I can make the thing. Definitely. You can sit there and say, hey, can you make me this? And yes, what is, you mentioned that you have high schoolers that come in here and stuff. What is the piece of advice that you would give, like a high schooler or somebody in college that's thinking about doing this type of business? Like, would you recommend that they go to college and take certain classes? Or would you say, hey, you should do a lot more like internship type stuff with hands on? Like, what kind of advice would you give them? Go to marketing. Way more money. No. But seriously, in that respect, it's just like, yeah, definitely like the community college is a great way to get into doing woodworking and laser cutting and all this sort of makerspace type of things, how they use the machines and things like that to. Yes. And basically they have all the machines for you to do. I know actually, right around the corner from me, the city is developing a little arts community over there, the base going to have a makerspace. So like a co-op space. Yeah. Right. So they're going to be doing that, but, as far as, like, getting into it, I'm like, you know, the high school kids that I've working, I've had work for me. They're already in the program. Kind of. They're doing like in high school. They're doing stuff. Yeah, they're they're learning how to use things in the shop. And then basically I put them into play of, you know, there's a production component because you're in school, like you're just learning things. But then I'm giving you real world applications for that, and then I help them develop and grow and ask them their curiosities and, flourish with that. And I also tell them, don't get a degree, my class, even though you have a degree, I operated for 11 years doing like, you know, for top companies without a degree, but, you know, different time, though sometimes it's hard now to get into like some of those bigger companies without. Yeah. And I won't say don't get a degree, but yeah, sometimes you don't necessarily need a degree. But yeah, you know, it's basically half of life is who you know. So reaching out to people is one of the things I always tell the kids. I'm like, okay, man, I like, you know, yeah, it's great that you do this, but, you know, reach out, talk to people because that resource is really where you well, it's finding if you're going to take classes, don't just focus on like the woodworking part of a design part, like maybe take a class on bookkeeping or marketing, you know, things like that. So when you do on your own business, you can like operate and be a little bit well-rounded and or know, hey, bookkeeping. Like for me, bookkeeping is not my deal. But I know now how to hire a good bookkeeper because of right what I'm going through that it's that component of so essentially it's like I went to school as a designer. I was a designer for so long. But one of the things that, you know, engineers are always like, oh, you know, designers, they just don't know because we design the things, but we don't know how you actually make the thing. And it's one of the things like as you get your hands on it and down, it is like, oh, oh, I didn't consider this like all this sort of things like that. So when you expand your horizon, it's like, okay, if I'm a designer, like go make something I shop, like go physically make something. You're like, really? So you can see what gets made into that. And it also helps you with cost. And in that respect as like as you said, bookkeeping that's like yeah. Like there's the whole finance part of my business, you know, from running design departments. It's like, yeah, I had to work with budgets and things like that. But now I'm actually like all the budgets. Yeah. Managing yourself is managing inventory like managing resources, managing people. Yeah. And then knowing when to scale when you can hire, when you shouldn't hire all those things. So that's always my advice to anybody looking to like be in their own business too, is like, make sure you're learning the stuff that doesn't just interest you, but like would benefit your business because it's easy to take the classes you love. And it's actually one of the beautiful parts about being in a small company is essentially like, you have to learn all the different things, like, you know, so as a person coming into the field, it's like, you know, work for a big company because you basically you'll be a in a channel, in a box. But if you go work for a smaller company, like you're going to be doing a lot of different things and you get a taste of the different things because, I think it was one of my former employees use this like, yeah, like I was really thinking, I really love this. And he's like, I don't love this, but I love it over here. Yeah. So, they get to learn the different, spectrums of what you could be doing in the field. So. Yeah, definitely. So you mentioned that you okay? He's changing his tune. I just reminded him all the things you got to know. No. Follow your own course. Like, you know. Yeah. Listen. Yeah. And ask for guidance to, like, follow your heart, but, like, no one to ask for help. You mentioned that you're on Etsy, so that is one way people can find you. You also have a website people can order directly off the website as well, and then social media, and then maybe at Art harvest or any other local pop ups you're going to do before Christmas. I'm not sure about markets. I'll play that by ear depending on how much time I have. You know, one of the things about doing markets, I love it because it gets you in front of people. It's kind of almost like a free focus group, essentially. What do you think this is? Right? It's just beautiful. Like, yeah, we love our design. You might not like people like you. We're talking about the snap boxes. You're like, okay, lady. And then that's like one of your top sellers. Yeah. So besides that, there's, like, pop local up in, Vancouver on the waterfront there. Then there's, not sure where else am I actually, right now. Okay. Yeah, but I know the markets get harder and harder for you the more busy you get, because you actually have to be in the shop shopping. Yeah. Oh, I might have to have somebody do the night market for me and. Yeah. And speak to it. But I'll do a couple of holiday, you know, festival type of things. But that's it probably. Yeah. Do you want to tell everybody on your website really quick talks design.com which tracks tracks like Sly Like a Fox tracks tracks design.com. Thank you so much for having me in the shop today and for being on. I really appreciate you. Yeah, and I appreciate you. And I really, totally appreciate having you, promote this. Yeah. Of course. Thank you. And thank you, everybody, for listening and or watching until we see you next time. Cheers. Cheers.